Re: Gunners in B17E ETO

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Comments:: : In his book America in the Air War Edward Jablonski mentiones that up to 1942 the crew in a B17E was 9 airmen and that one more gunner was added later on. When was that done ? With the arrival of the B17G or earlier ? Where was this additional crewmember seated ? I know that at least some missions carried 11 airmen in a B17. Why ? High brass going for a ride as observer ? Spare gunner ? Medic ? Secret Agent to be dropped over enemy territory ? Any knowledgeable answer to these questions would be very much appreciated. : : Ed : ==================== : B-17F, Familiarization Manual For Operation Of Model-B-17F Bombardment Airplane. : Boeing Document NO D-1441-A, Feb. 1943, 217. : Security Status at the time: (Restricted) : Page 32, General Instructions (edited by WSC, please pardon any retyping mistakes.) : Interior Arrangement : "In the nose section of the fuselage provision is made for the functions of navigator and bombardier with the addtion of either felxible .30 caliber or .50 caliber machine guns." (2 men in nose) : "Between the nose section and the front spar is the pilots' cockpit ...contains a Sperry power turret with twin .t0 caliber machine guns." : (3 men in cockpit, 2 pilots and 1 Flight Engineer/Top Turret Gunner.) : "The bomb bay is situated aft of the pilot's cockpit." : "Aft of the rear spar the radio compartment provides for the function of radio operator and camera operator and for two auxiliary seats... A single .50 caliber machine gun is also operated from this compartment in emergencies." : (Normally 1 man, in most mission aircraft.) : "In the bottom of the rear fuselage compartment is installed a Sperry ball-type power turret equipped with .50 caliber machines guns A single .50 caliber machine gun is mounted at each side window in the rear gunner's compartment." : (1 man in BT and early on, 2 Waist Gunner, a Right and Left. Later in 8th, only 1. From summer of 44, normally 2 men in this section.) : "In the extreme end of the fuselage the tail gunner's copartment contains a direct-sighted twin .50 caliber machine gun." : (1 Man) (Totals 9 men in standard B-17E and B-17G by mid-summer, 1944.) : --- : In the mid-summer of 1944, there was a shortage of gunners in the 8th USAAF and others. It had been found in 10 men crews, the inside formation waist gunner would follow German fighters diving through the formation, the waist gunner firing all the time. This lead to our own waist gunners shooting at and hitting other B-17s in the formation and perhaps, killing crewmembers or shooting down the bomber. In order to prevent this, once it was realized to be a greater hazzard than no gunner, a change was made. : A decision was made to reduce the 10 men crew to 9 and most, if not all arriving crews from mid-summer 1944, had one waist gunner re-assigned. At least one 10 crew member, waist gunner, originally assigned to the 452nd BG in England, ended up in the 15th USAAF, as a belly gunner. : Both machine guns were in position during a mission and the outside formation waist gunner could switch to the other, inside formation machine gun if required. : I doubt, if any qualified Flight Engineer/Top Turretn Gunner served as Navigator. During 1944 and later, many bombardiers were removed and a togglier was assigned, some were Enlisted men. Their job was to watch the lead bomber and toggle out their aircraft's bombs when the bombs fell from the lead bomber. I have heard, that some navigators also toggled, but have no proof. : A bombardier needed to have their direct attention for only a short time during the mission. Otherwise, they were just another gunner in the nose. : A Flight Engineer/Top Turret Gunner had a job that demanded attention during the entire mission. : A Navigator, if they were any good, were very busy during the entire mission and just a few minutes or perhaps a few seconds could lead the a Navigator losing their positon. : By mid-1944, when the bombers got close to the target, the German fighters stayed from their own FLAK and a top turret gunner might become a toggler without endangering the bomber too much. However, to find a FE/TTG, who was also a avigator, is sort of hard to believe. : As far as mistakes, both authors have mistakes in their books, that have lead for years to wrong information being repeated so long, that the wrong information has become the correct informaton. : At least in one Group, a crew member interested in photography, were permitted to take Group cameras. Man of those photographs are now carried as Group photographs without actual photographic credit being given to the crewman involved. : To take any one author and decide they are the only one to believe, has lead to many books containing a lot of wrong information. As so many authors now, are just reading a lot of books and then because they find the same mistake in two or more, that mistake is now the absolute truth. It is a self-feeding problem of military history, as few really do the hard, backup research before writing.

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